Royal Rumble – The Champion enters the Ring

Posted on August 22, 2009 by Kirsten Winkler

As a kid back in the nineties I loved to watch Wrestling on TV. Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Bret Michaels, The Heartbreak Kid, you name them. One of the events I loved the most was the Royal Rumble where every two minutes another Wrestler entered the ring. The rule was simple: the last one in the ring won the match and you had to get all the others out of the ring above the top row. But their two feet had to touch the ground to be out of the match.

At some moments of the fight there were up to 20 Top Wrestlers in the match, building alliances that broke the next minute and so on. You see, the WWF taught me a lot about business ;) .

Now what has this to do with online education? Well, you can say that in the Royal Rumble of language learning communities we are now at the point where the World Champion entered the Ring. In this case Rosetta Stone with their new product TOTALe.

Rosetta Stone TOTALe is a combination of the Rosetta Course™ with Rosetta Studio™ and Rosetta World®. As the guys at Rosetta Stone made some nice videos I embeded them and give you my thoughts on them below.

1. The Method

Nothing much to say about this method. I completely agree about the fact that this is working for children when they are learning their first language. I am a bit sceptic if this really works for all adults but I also never tried it myself. It seems to work for others, though.

2. Rosetta Course™

One of the main factors here: Rosetta Stone was founded in 1992 and since then, so for 17 years, they have developed their courses. This means they have a huge dataset they can build their courses on. Livemocha and the others started about 2 years ago so they only have operational data of 2 years, of course.

I could argue about the fact that all lessons are only in the language you are learning but of course this is essential for the method to learn a language like a child does with the first language.

The other main feature: the speech recognition software that allows you to get instant feedback on your pronunciation even if you are learning on your own. And I think that it’s pretty amazing, too.

3. Rosetta Studio™

I think the word “guided” plays an important role here. The Studio coach is just moderating the session, the work is done by the students. The coach only drops in to explain the exercise and to assist if some help is needed.

The other strong part will be the matching I guess. As the Rosetta Course is the same for every learner, you only will be in the session with people having the exact same knowledge.

4. Rosetta World®

This is the community aspect of Rosetta TOTALe. You can play games, chat with community members or connect with them to do exercises together.

Now, what does this mean for the language learning communities out there?

First of all they have to face the fact that the old top dog joined the ring. And it looks as if he is still in very good condition. The younger dogs now have to look for a new strategy. The times where Livemocha could say they are better than Rosetta Stone are definitely over.

Secondly, there is of course a psychological problem. Up to now the online communities were the innovators. They took the old school PC based Rosetta Course, brought it on the net and built a community around it. The facebook for language learning as some say. But one feature was left aside: the speech recognition. This is basically done by other community members who correct your recordings. Now Livemocha and the others have to handle an established concurrent who is offering all they offer plus this feature. So, from now on Rosetta Stone will be one feature ahead.

The third issue is also a psychological one. Right now we who are in the industry know that Livemocha and the others were the first ones, the innovators. Their communities know it either. One can say about 4.000.000 people worldwide. Nevertheless what will be the situation in one year? For a die hard Rosetta Stone fan or someone who will be looking for language online courses some months from now it will appear as if Rosetta Stone has always been there.

Fourth is the timing. Why did Rosetta Stone choose July 2009 to come online? Could have two reasons:
1. They think the time is right.
2. They think this is going to be a big market in the near future and they don’t want the others to gain too many followers.

Naturally, I cannot say anything about the quality of the Rosetta TOTALe product but as it is based on the Rosetta Course which has millions of fans out there it cannot be that bad at all.

One of the strenghts of language learning communities are the communities. They are emotionally attached to the platform, they help them grow etc. whereas the Rosetta Stone community is more controled. It is an exclusive club and you will be matched with language partners automatically by the system.
On the other hand you can be quite sure that the other community members on Rosetta Stone will be there for language learning and not to add you as their “friend” or to write you love letters and marriage proposals.

What does this mean for the industry as a whole. Well, if a company is putting so much effort and money on the table to get a product like this out on the market they seem to see some potential. This is good because this way the whole e-learning sector will get more eyeballs. It might even have caused the drop in the shares of Rosetta Stone earlier this month.

Did I mention the price yet? Only $990 for a year during the launch period, later on $1.200 / $100 per month. But again, I think this is great. This way a company which is known for their high priced products does not take a cut because it is “only” online. Good statement and leaves air to breath for other competitors.

It will be interesting to see how Livemocha and the others will cope with this new situation. Maybe we will get some answers at the ETCon on August 27 as Shirley Yoing of Livemocha and Bernhard Niesner of Busuu will be on the panel.

Related Posts:

  1. Chat on Twitter about Language Learning with Rosetta Stone #RSchat
  2. Babbel now Knows What You are Saying – Introduces Voice Recognition
  3. #ripoff-stone or Livemocha does a Twitter Experiment
  4. Livemocha and Collins announce Partnership for Premium Courses
  5. Livemocha secures another $8 Million in Series B Funding

About Kirsten Winkler

Education 2.0 Blogger at KirstenWinkler.com, Interviewer at EDUKWEST.com, Consultant at WinklerMedia.com.
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  • chinamike
  • You are welcome. Nice comment, btw. I also like:

    "I'd have so much more respect for a company that came out honestly and said we want to make a profit for our shareholders as we sell language instruction." from Loraine :)
  • I agree with you that the Champion Entered the Ring and it will have great impact on the participants of the Learn Languages Online. However, I think that the high price and the same method created many years ago without account of needs of the modern adults will place the old dog in a rather limited niche.

    Rosetta Stone (RS) does mimic the way a child would learn: it shows the pictures and foreign words without explanations in the native language. However, without acknowledging the harm of cross-translation and providing the tools for avoiding it, the students inevitably revert to subconscious translation into their native language. In my opinion Rosetta Stone programs have the following deficiencies:

    The program comes with written manuals. Not a word in native language is in sight. No translation is provided! It’s a sink or swim approach.

    Mimicking a child as Rosetta Stone suggests would not work for adults as expected since learners should first be explained in their own language how to create the right learning habits - then they will learn English in a much shorter time.

    There is no opportunity within the RS program for conversation with another individual.

    The program does not challenge you to make up your own sentences.

    In the RS program, there is a lot more emphasis on comprehension than mastery of free-flowing speech and sentence construction by the learners.

    Without special tools which will automatically turn off cross-translation and start forming the English language speech center in the brain this program will have little impact on the modern Digital Learner who has new features and characteristics unknown when the Rosetta Stone was founded.

    When words are combined in the natural phrases of the language they achieve force and clarity.

    It is not grammar and words that need to be learned so much as phrases.

    New vocabulary and pronunciation are more easily learned within phrases than on their own.

    Many of the most common problems relating to word order, choice of words, prepositions, verb tenses and verb agreement could be eliminated by building students’ written language around the phrases they have learned.

    Some people are visual learners and some people learn better by listening. However, all learners can benefit from doing three actions at the same time: reading, listening and repeating over and over to reinforce their learning as the patented Language Bridgemethod suggests.
  • Thanks for your comment :). As a language teacher I am doubtful about the approach to learn a language like a child, too. At least if you really want to learn a language in depth and not just "parrot french" as I use to say ;).
    Simply because and adult cannot place himself into the thinking, the openness of a child's mind anymore.
    But I do believe that grammar and vocabulary learning should be "outsourced" to tools like RS, Livemocha etc.

    But most of the problems you mention with RS in your post are solved now. You were thinking about the offline version. For example:

    "There is no opportunity within the RS program for conversation with another individual."
    Now there is. In the Studio session after each segment and in Rosetta World.

    "The program does not challenge you to make up your own sentences."
    Same as the above, Studio and World.

    "In the RS program, there is a lot more emphasis on comprehension than mastery of free-flowing speech and sentence construction by the learners."
    Again, connect with native speakers through Rosetta World.

    And so on. I think no method will be perfect to learn a language. To my mind it is always a combination of several methods and very much depending on the learning type of the student.

    But I think RS is delivering something that is already proven to deliver a decent way to build at least a basis. As I mentioned in another post: language learning communities are very popular and people seem to really learn with them. RS is now offering the exact same thing, a mix of asynchronous and synchronous learning tools plus guidance of a language teacher.

    I also think that the impact will not only be felt by language learning communities but also by teaching platforms.

    And a good test to see the market position of RS these days: go to Twitter search and look out for Rosetta Stone. Everyone seems to be happy with it.
  • Based on the knowledge and experience you have now your response is absolutely right.

    I hope that you will reveal some new facts and information while answering the following questions:
    • What is the number of middle school graduates (for example in USA, China, Russia, and Mexico) who speak foreign language after spending years and years studying them in school?
    • Do you teach English and German by the same method you have learned and used in acquiring your linguistic profession?
    • What is the main barrier in acquiring a foreign language that is common to all ESL learners?
    • ESL learners today and 10 years ago have the same characteristics or different? Elaborate on this topic.
    • Apparently the Global English learners could be classified into linguistic capable and non-capable. What is the ratio between these two groups?

    In writing the answers to the above questions, please, give the intuitive first response that comes to your mind without doing the Internet research. You will be surprised to reveal a few aspects which never occurred to you as a linguist.

    You write: “I do believe that grammar and vocabulary learning should be "outsourced" to tools like RS, Livemocha etc.”

    I disagree with this proposal because ESL is a physical skill and should be trained as whole, not taught, without outsourcing or separating it into components like grammar, vocabulary, etc.

    Most language books are written by linguists for linguists. It is very difficult for linguists to understand the difficulties non-linguists have in learning a language. They cannot understand that what was easy for them to learn is extremely difficult for others. You know that most adult learners nowadays don’t want to become linguists. So first create the right habits and discover how to learn English naturally. If you wish to achieve your goal of speaking fluently in English without becoming a linguist and be an active and successful netizen of the Global economy you need to reevaluate your beliefs and the advice of leading language companies and linguists. Their advice is given to potential linguists and is not applicable to Digital Learners anymore.

    What concerns the Rosetta Stone Totale I agree with you that this program does a terrific job of immersing you in a language and may be the next best thing to living in a country, surrounded by native speakers. But the pricey Totale is not the ultimate answer to one billion of potential customers in the next 10 years. Here is why.

    The Table contains statistical data for two web sites from Alexa:

    Description Rosettastone.com Italki.com
    Traffic Rank 16,478 15,160
    3 month average 19% up 13% up
    Age population for RS
    mostly represented
    35-44
    55-64
    65+
    Age population for italki.com
    18-24
    35-44
    25-34
    for RS users from USA 67.1
    Users from China 1.8
    Users from Russia 1.2
    Users from India 2.7
    Users from South Korea < 0.6%

    for italki.com
    Users from USA 8.9
    Users from China 20.3
    Users from Russia 8
    Users from India 7.3
    Users from South Korea 18.3
    Education for RS College
    Education for itlaki.com Graduate School

    Conclusion: The pricey Totale program is designed and used mainly by professionals and college graduates in the USA who are interested in foreign languages, mainly as a hobby.

    The main contenders for the leading role in the Global economy (China, India, South Korea, etc.) are under-represented among visitors of Rosetta Stone web site, although namely these countries contain the major portion of one billion ESL learners who need fluency in ESL without going into language depth. For them practical knowledge of ESL can be the deciding factor in finding a better job or getting a promotion. They need a modern method of learning ESL fast. To achieve this objective ESL educators should unite and together formulate the fundamental principles of a new method of learning ESL fast.

    Sincerely,
    Arkady Zilberman
  • Now we are going into a whole different direction. The post was meant to be a comparision of the services that RS, Livemocha and the others are offering. It was not meant to be a post about how effective this method is. But ok, let's see what we got.

    1. The numbers are very low because students in those countries learn a quiet English, they never have the chance to practice it with a real language partner as the same is true for their teachers. So maybe 1% or less.

    2. I don't have a linguistic profession from the beginning. I am a lawyer with a love for languages. I am teaching languages with my own method for over 7 years now. This method is conversational focussed and it always brought instant results.

    3. I think the barrier will be the same for all languages and not only for ESL.

    4. ESL learners today want to use English as a tool. They want (need) to be part of a global conversation that takes place in English. Without English you don't have a chance in a globalized world.

    5. 10/90%

    Again, I am not a linguist and I think this is one reason why my teaching is so successful. But of course it is nice to hear that you think I am one ;).

    Talking about the price of TOTALe we are back on the main topic of this post. Of course RS is targetting a market where people can afford to buy this product, no doubt about this.

    The problem for Livemocha now is that they have no real monetisation of their product yet. Taking this a step further: if someone wants to learn a language he wil come to a point where language exchange and community based learning is not enough. So he has to put some money on the table. In this case he will choose a brand he knows and or sees in the public area. RS is doing TV spots and even have their own shops. It's a well known brand with a certain reputation amongst the CONSUMERS, I am not talking about teachers, educators etc, CONSUMERS, average Joe, etc.
    So if average Joe has the choice between "the original" RS and the cheaper Livemocha I bet that 75% to 80% will spend more money and take RS.

    Which makes from one day to the other the innovator Livemocha to the cheap version of RS TOTALe. Which is of course not fair but business.

    Again, thanks for your comments on my blog.
  • chinamike
    Some interesting thoughts. I especially like the notion of a teacher out-sourcing the repetitive tasks of vocabulary and grammar learning to cheaper, digital platforms. I agree with Kirsten and I believe that this will be a strong feature of language learning in the future.

    What will the role be for independent teachers in the future? I think it is a kind of symbiosis with platforms that can offer faster, cheaper, and more closely guided instruction in those parts of language learning that are by nature repetitive.

    So, will language teachers be seen by profit seeking companies as ASSEMBLY LINE WORKERS or creative, VALUE ADDERS? I wonder especially how these two giants view this? My guess is that RS, being a company that is largely marketing oriented, will entirely miss this boat. It will probably remain a profitable niche product for some time, bringing some rewards to shareholders and upper management (see recent IPO news). Their current approach to persuing high worth, American beggining students is at odds with an approach that would target the vast, difficult to enter, markets of Asia which are EXTREMELY price sensitive. LM is a different bird however and as yet we can be sure if they will become an inclusive entity reaching out to independent tutors or not.

    Sorry, not to get caught up in your discussion of which company (or program) is better or worse. These two companies currently serve different (but increasingly intersecting) markets. But I am most concerned as to how all this effects the practicing, self-employed tutor.

    Certainly this new move by RS will make it more competitive in this rapidly expanding and soon to be global marketplace.


  • Your thoughts are very interesting. Let me share with you my opinion on your main question: “How all this effects the practicing, self-employed tutor.”

    The main contenders for the leading role in the Global economy (China, India, South Korea, etc.) are under-represented among visitors of Rosetta Stone web site and all other online learning portals, although namely these countries contain the major portion of one billion ESL learners in the next 10 years who need fluency in ESL without going into language depth.

    For them practical knowledge of ESL can be the deciding factor in finding a better job or getting a promotion. They need a modern method of learning ESL fast. For them it is a necessity. There is a saying that necessity is the mother of invention. Unfortunately the invention is on its way and now we don’t have a modern method of learning ESL that will meet the requirements of Digital Learners. By the way, the majority of today’s learners are Digital with new characteristics and requirements.

    I recommend watching John Fotheringham presentation: Why Most Fail and How You Can Succeed:
    http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language-learning-presentation

    In my opinion, the Online Learning Portals should comprehend the necessity of uniting their teachers and creating a common ground for their teachers. Certification of ESL teacher is not a guaranty of his/her ability to help adults to learn ESL fast. ESL educators should unite and together formulate the fundamental principles of a new method of learning ESL.

    The new method should take into consideration the following facts:
    • Learning a language is not an academic subject but a physical skill and should be trained or learned rather than taught. That is why the old traditional methods showed poor results.
    • All adult learners could be classified into language-capable (about 5-10%) and language-incapable (90-95%). The new method should restore the innate ability of learning languages in the second group of learners.
    • A special tool is needed to automatically turn off cross-translation as the main barrier in acquiring fluency in a foreign language.

    I would like to offer to all ESL teachers for free a complete version of my patented Language Bridge software that was designed with account of the above facts. Send me you email and I will email to you the link for downloading the software from Internet.

    Sincerely,
    Arkady Zilberman
  • First of all I think the move of RS online will have a positive effect on the whole elearning sector. Because if a well known brand is moving towards a new sector it will automatically attract eyeballs on the industry as a whole.

    There are the potential new students who learned with CDs or books before and are now shown an online version plus the investors who think: if RS is moving, then there must be money on the table.

    So investors will look out for possibilities to fund smaller companies in the same sector, students who cannot afford RS will look for alternatives and so on and so furth.

    RS TOTALe could be a kickstart for elearning. You can think of their method what you want but if they would sell crap, why is it that everybody seems to be happy.

    And pricewise: well, good for competitors. As I said in my post above, it leaves enough air to build something in the same niche.

    In the end I think we all will profit. Just my 2 cents ;)
  • susanwhite
    Oh...now I get it. Mr. Zilberman has a personal financial stake in this market because he is pushing his own software. This hidden bias is finally revealed.

    Personally, I am not a linguist, but I am an educator. And my middle school adopted Rosetta Stone on a subscription basis for our ESL students. I have to say it was a huge success. Many of these students feel embarassed and afraid to speak up in a normal class setting, but with Rosetta Stone they have the chance to practice pronunciation and here there own voice against a native speaker in a safe, non-judgemental space. And having been through the Spanish version, I have to say it worked for this adult...many of my colleagues agree. Sorry to sound so much like a commercial (there are plenty of those on the air) but Rosetta Stone has been a Godsend for our school and our students. Hope this helps balance out the commentary. (I'm not selling anything!!!)
  • Hi Susan,
    I totally agree with your comment: Rosetta Stone is a great product! Especially for middle schools who can afford a subscription of RS TOTALe for their ESL students. ESL students who live in the USA and have friends whose native language is English will easily learn ESL by any method, RS including!

    This discussion is aimed at a different category of ESL learners: about 4.000.000 people worldwide learn ESL in online communities. Unfortunately, the main contenders for the leading role in the Global economy (China, India, South Korea, etc.) are under-represented among visitors of Rosetta Stone web site and all other online learning portals, although namely these countries contain the major portion of one billion ESL learners in the next 10 years who need fluency in ESL without going into language depth.

    A few questions for Susan:
    • What is the number of high school graduates (for example in USA, China, Russia, and Mexico) who speak foreign language after spending years and years studying them in school?
    • Have you watched John Fotheringham presentation: Why Most Fail and How You Can Succeed: http://l2mastery.com/featured-articles/language...
    • Do you speak any foreign languages?

    I'm not selling anything or pushing my own software – I give away my patented software for free to any educator who would like to try it. Besides, I am also ready to assign my patent on Language Bridge Technology to Roseta Stone for free. I would appreciate if you could help me to accomplish this assignment. It is not a joke!

    My objective is to unite ESL teachers and together create a new method of learning ESL that will appeal to one billion of ESL learners and cause the explosion of online learning portals. To comprehend the difference between traditional and alternative methods visit these web sites which describe the alternative to the traditional teaching methods:
    http://effortlessenglishclub.com/, www.lingq.com or my site www.language-bridge.com.

    Sincerely yours,
    Arkady Zilberman
  • Hi Susan,
    well it was no secret that Mr. Zilberman has his own product :).

    I have the feeling that RS cannot be that bad. As I said, I never tried their method so I cannot say if it works or not for myself. I can only say that I am doubtful about the general method as my personal teaching style follows an other scheme.

    It is great to hear the opinion of a RS user who also implemented it in a teaching environment. Much appreciated, Susan.
  • Oh, I know, there are so many factors in this move of RS. Would fill a whole ETCon ;).

    My mission for the E-Teachers Academy is to get independent teachers to the point where they are stronger than the tools and services. Because that is what they are. Scotch tape.

    I see the student of the near future as someone who exactly knows what he wants. He will learn a lot on asynchronous learning websites but also search the advice or guidance of a teacher / tutor.

    So the task for independent teachers for the years to come is to gain visibility.
  • chinamike
    You know the old joke right. Two hikers met a bear in the forest and the bear started chasing them. As they were running one hiker turned to the other and said, "we will never get away, it is too fast." To this the second hiker replied, "I don't need to get away from the bear, all I need to do is run faster than you."

    So much, I believe, for the idea of teachers treating tools like Scotch tape.
  • And to change this is my mission in the next years.
  • chinamike
    And in which part of that story does your mission lie?
  • To convince the hikers that the bear is a vegetarian and just wanted to offer a lift to them ;).

    Embrace the bear!
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