Hi Marina,

you are welcome :). And thank you for the compliment about my blog. I try to do my best, as always ;).

Once more about keeping the money, though. I would agree IF Myngle would be a school and we, the teachers, would be employees. But this is not the case. Teachers are using this platform to offer their services, not Myngle's services. So basically every teacher there is his/her own "CEO". The student is in direct contact with the teacher and so on and so furth. When I started on Myngle, the rules were totally different from now, and funny enough I never had to agree to the changes. There was just and information email "we change the rules at monday" and that was it. Anyway, each teacher has to decide for him/herself if it is OK or not ;).

I agree on your point that Myngle is the only platform that really generated paid lessons on a regular basis. But you have to keep in mind that it was only because Myngle put a lot of money on the table (the Boost) to get the business running. The interesting part is if Myngle is able to generate "normal" lessons now or if it was just all about the Boost that cost Myngle a lot of money but did not lead to long term clients.
Recent posts in the Myngle blog talk about lots of sold lesson packages. And there is the planed launch of lesson packages. Will be really interesting in the next couple of weeks, I think.

Hi Kristen,

Thank you for your thorough explanation.

Although I haven't been active on Myngle forum or blog, I've read the posts regularly. I also remember the 'old times', when students paid us directly, but I don't mind being paid once a month, and Myngle keeping the money in the meantime - this is what happens in the real life, right? (That's why we are still teachers, not CEOs :o)))

I guess most of the professional educators had been well acquainted with free online classrooms before they joined Myngle. Still, these 'platforms' are places where we gather to meet potential online students. Each of them(platforms) has a different set of rules and we all comply with them when we join. What I want to say is that I see no point in running someone else's business, especially if they've been very fair and brought in some money and positive teaching experience. Personally, I find WIZIQ classroom more convenient, but there are no 'paying students'...

As for 'converting offline to online' topic, I completely agree with you. I look forward to reading your post on freelancers and why they fall behind in the internet. Excellent blog, very relevant, pointing to good directions and links. Thanks :o)

Hi Marina,
welcome to my blog and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

I agree, Myngle did invest money to attract students and teachers. Well, that's their business and that's what they get paid 18% commission for (plus interest on the payments, plus 50% of unused lessons). But still, the students look for TEACHERS not for platforms. The teachers offer their services, the teacher gives the "free meet your teacher" session, the teacher plans the lessons, etc. Myngle is "just" a platform, a search engine for students and teachers to find "preselected" content.
Myngle might want to change that in the future (or already did without telling the teachers) but up to now, they are just a platform. Teachers have no contract with Myngle, and Myngle does not provide teaching material (well, ok, some slides). So two essential factors for being an online school are not given.

About keeping the money. This has nothing to do with responsibility. It's pure business. In the beginning, teachers were paid directly by the students for each single lesson. The teacher then paid his commission at the end of the month. Like on eBay (which comes up all the time talking about Myngle). On eBay the buyer pays the seller and the seller then pays the commission to eBay. Fair deal and if you compare the basic functionalities it's the same concept.
But Myngle changed it now to get cashflow coming in. First they made weekly payments, then bi-weekly payments, then monthly payments. As I said, it's business and they can do what they want but if you are on Myngle for a long time like me, you know that there were "better times" for teachers and you cannot blame especially professionel teachers to be "a bit" annoyed of what is going on.

I wrote about my doubts to bring offline students to a platform like Myngle. If you read one of my recent posts here on the blog about converting offline to online students you will find that I infact converted my offline students to online students already. But again, why should I give a part of my income to an organisation, be it Myngle or eduFire or all the others, when I can offer my students all these services on my own? Makes no sense.

I know that Myngle wants to offer their "services" to offline schools. But what services exactly? They don't even have an own product. They use the dimdim classroom environment which is available for free on dimdim.com. So every school on the planet could offer the same classroom to their students, signing freelancers to teach them. Or you choose the WiZiQ classroom, or the free version of Adobe Connect, or Dabbleboards etc...

Freelance teachers will never die out. This is one of the posts I am working on, trying to find a reason why freelancers are still somewhat behind in the internet ;).

But everybody is free to chose the platform, website or classroom he likes best. Personally I had great times with Myngle and I still have students there. But like most of the "old" teachers there I am not 100% content with the way Myngle is changing their policies.

And I think you come to the crucial point in your last sentence. Yes, the secret lies in cooperation but Myngle seems to have chosen another path.

Hello to Mynglers,

First, I want to say that I have been teaching offline for 15 years, being both a teacher and a school owner. Two years ago I started teaching online and I've been with Myngle for 6 months now. That's why I've read this discussion with interest. There is always a funny thing going on between teachers and school managers :o)Kristen's sentence from the previous post echoes a teacher's train of thoughts 'Myngle did not sell ONE SINGLE LESSON, the teachers did', having forgotten the investment which the school, in this case Myngle, made in advertising, promoting, etc. I also don't find complaints about Myngle taking&keeping the money paid in advance justified (they are just being responsible). In some other posts, Kristen wrote about her doubts whether to 'turn' her offline students into online, but it is just a matter of time when they start doing it themselves. And then, inevitably, they will find reliable online schools, such as Myngle, which will have had professional and loyal teachers by then. As Marina said, they will offer their service to offline schools worldwide - especially in the countries, such as mine, where there are hardly any native speaker teachers. Some offline models - enrolling a course (3/6/9 months) will apply as well. On the other hand, some practices will die out - freelance teachers can enjoy the freedom and their students paying lesson by lesson, simply because they are there - they are members of their community, but not in the world of online teaching. We, as teachers, often take some things for granted, while school owners have tendency to overlook the educational side of the story. The secret of success is mutual cooperation.

I think we have reached a very important point in this conversation. Is Myngle trying to be an online school, a free marketplace, or some other form of organization? It should be noted that there are a lot of organizations trying out something new and different (and risky) in this field.

The future is calling and we are all trying to listen very carefully.

As teachers we are trying to figure out what our responsibilities are as WELL AS THE THE RESPONSIBILITIES of the organizations who are attempting to profit from our work and, in today's world, our CONNECTIONS.

There is no roadmap and I do not pretend to know what is absolutely correct. The whole thing involves a process of feeling things out as we go along. Feeling out what is fair and consistent and truthful. In this very situation I would expect that a company would hear voices of dissatisfaction if you start making changes, no matter how well-meaning, that seem to contradict these principles.

I'll let you speak to Kirsten's accounting figures, which, though estimates, sound accurate to me given our ability to extrapolate from the current group of teachers.

Hello Marina,

thank you for joining the discussion. It's always the best, when the CEO represents his/her company.

According to your post, you changed the business model of Myngle from a learning platform to an online language school. If you want to bind the students on Myngle it's not about teachers offering their services on a marketplace anymore, it's about Myngle offering language courses given by their "certified" teachers. This is a drastic change but would explain the changes in the past weeks and months:

- holding back payments
The student does not pay the teacher anymore. The student pays Myngle and Myngle then gives the "wage" to the teacher. So the teacher is NOT independent anymore but more or less an employee or at least a freelancer for Myngle.

- lesson packages
Same here. Myngle gets the whole ammount of the sold lesson package upfront then pays the teacher his wage. If there are unused lessons in the end, Myngle gives the teacher a 50% "promotion" (because the teacher needn't to teach them).

I always thought Myngle just offers the platform for teachers and students to connect and the binding would be between the teacher and the student. The way you describe it, the teacher is not important. He is more or less the classic lanuage school teacher you get to know when you enter the classroom the first time. You don't book him, you book the school.

But if you want to be a classic language school (just online) you need to make legal contracts with your teachers. You have to deduct social contributions, give them holidays, lay-off protrection etc...

Plus when Myngle is the online language school, I as a teacher are not responsible anymore to look for students, right? I just enter the classroom when the school calls me to teach.

Back to the binding of students. Throughout my studying years I myself regulary subscribed to "classic" language schools all over the globe. I was never forced to subscribe for 3 month or more. Generally my impression was that I could choose between weekly to bi-weekly or monthly intensive courses. These travels were 10 or more years ago and the schools still exist with the same system. Here in France I came across several companies which offered the system you chose. Unfortunately, I have to tell you that most of them don't exist anymore after 3 years. This is not my definition of a long term successful business model.

During my carreer as a teacher (online + offline) I NEVER forced my clients to buy x lessons in advance. This is one of the major reasons why most of my students never quit learning with me. For years! "Au contraire" they were fed up with the schools who made them pay the ammount x in advance. This again is a way to make quick money but not the way for long term clients. And in times of a recession I don't think that people are willing to put so much money away. There are other things to buy.

Brings us to the quality platform. You want the teachers to give reduction on their packages to make them attractive. But with an average price of 10 Euro per 30 minute how much reduction shall they give? Even 10 Euro does not reflect a realistic price. In fact Myngle made this price by setting the rules for the Boost (any teacher that...).

And my last point for now (because I have to think about all this intensively again): the facts.

I don't want to argue about this, but
1) Myngle did not sell ONE SINGLE LESSON, the teachers did! And I don't believe that there were thousands of lessons non promotional. If you can and you want to prove it, I would like to see the numbers.

2) Today at 1pm there were 265 teachers in the search.
13 had -1 or 0 lessons
84 had one lesson
34 had 2 lessons

Adds up to 131 teachers (49%). So, yes, the "majority" of 265 teachers gave more than 2 lessons on Myngle, depending on what you call majority I guess.
The interested reader has now to know that 1 lesson is the consultation lesson with Myngle, so you cannot really count that as a lesson, can you?

46 teachers had between 3 and 9 lessons (17%)
22 teachers had between 10 and 19 lessons (8%)
11 teachers had between 11 and 29 lessons (4%)

I know, this might be incorrect but let's suppose MOST of these teacher had one boost student. This would mean that around 78% of all teachers on Myngle never had more than one student.

8 teachers had between 30 and 39 lessons (3%)
9 teachers had between 40 and 49 lessons (3%)
8 teachers had between 50 and 59 lessons (3%)
3 teachers had between 60 and 69 lessons (1%)
1 teachers had between 70 and 79 lessons (-%)
4 teachers had between 80 and 89 lessons (1%)
3 teachers had between 90 and 99 lessons (1%)

36 teachers (12%) had either more than one student or sold some extra non promo lessons, maybe even just some free needs analysis?!

2 teachers had between 100 and 179 lessons (1%)
5 teachers had between 180 and 199 lessons (2%)
4 teachers had between 200 and 299 lessons (2%)
1 teachers had between 300 and 399 lessons (-%)
1 teachers had between 400 and 499 lessons (-%)
2 teachers had between 500 and 599 lessons (1%)
1 teachers had between 600 and 699 lessons (-%)
1 teachers had between 900 and 999 lessons (-%)

17 teachers (6%) sold more than 100 lessons. And if I may take myself as the "poster" teacher, at least 80% of these lessons were boost lessons. So I don't know, where those thousands of non promo lessons should come from?!

And finally, I am really deeply sorry about the fact that I gave Egbert the title CEO instead of "co-founder". This is very important, I guess ;).

Some good points Marina. Facts some time are hard to come by but I agree we need to be careful in stating opinons as fact. Having said that I would like to say that as a teacher who has had students study with me for years at a time, I have never asked for a dollar in advance and I have always told students they can leave at A MOMENT'S NOTICE.

Any teacher that can only hold a student's interest for just a few lessons in absence of a long term financial comittment is a teacher that could be in need of help. That help could be as simple as help in figuring out and targeting what the student really needs so as to keep them long-term. It may mean turning away students that can not articulate a good reason for studying.

Schools miss this and as a result they often cover up this inability to figure out what students need by forcing them into a situation where they are no longer studying because they want to be in a place but because they want to recover the value that they have paid. I would think that this is the LEAST APPEALING aspect of schools that you would want to copy.

I personally believe that the philosophy of "I give you complete freedom to leave at any time" forces upon the teacher a kind of discipline that is in the best long-term interests of the teacher/student teacher relationship.

Thank you for communicating your thinking of late. I hope this contrary thinking is helping you and your staff see things from a different point of view.

Hi all, this is Marina from Myngle.

I saw that there a discussions about the recently introduced packages on this Blog, and thought I should reply to your concerns and show also Myngle perspective to it.

First I want to comment to the fact that that we do not need money fast, but want to be in the game for the long term, and based our financing on this. We do not have the need for urgent profit making.


About the packages, I can see the points some of you are making, but the packages are for the teachers’ benefit, and for the serious students as well as Myngle.

We do not want to be a platform for free stuff. We do not want to be a platform for cheap occasional lessons, but we want to get students who are serious in learning, willing to pay for good teaching.

You probably know that every time a user has to take a decision, the chance of dropping off is there. And also that language learning starts with an exciting first few lessons, then excitement diminish half way when effort and study is needed, or the student is too busy or…
If a student buys individual lessons, the chance of him dropping off half way is real and big. That is a pity, as it also takes away the possibility for the student to really learn.
I think you all know this.
So there are two possibilities: we let this happen, or we tie the student in a way that is similar to what students experience in offline schools.

When you register to a program offline, you do not buy 1 or 2 or 5 classes, you buy a program. This normally covers a full level, or a set period. Offline schools normally ask students to commit for at least 3 months (up to 1 year).
Because we are limiting the number, strict on selection and preparing teachers to be on Myngle, and because many teachers have already a lot of experience in teaching on Myngle (with hundreds of lessons already given per teacher), we believe we can offer the student a similar proposition to offline schools.
We believe teachers on Myngle are not any less good then those that students pay in an offline school.

Specifically about the size of the packages, a student who wants to take more intensive lessons will not calculate as one lesson every 3,6 days, but will do at least 2 lessons at the same time. This is what most offline students do when taking offline lessons, take 2 hours per week in the same day, or if want to do it more intensively, 2 hours twice per week.


About your comments over the promotion: learn and adapt is the key to success. I fully understand your concerns about these giving the idea the lessons are cheap, and are working on this.
But one of the objectives of the promotions was to give the possibility for teachers to give enough lessons online on Myngle to feel perfectly comfortable and be successful in the future. It is an investment Myngle made in our pioneer teachers.


One thing I would like to ask is that if someone of you states facts, please make sure these are correct.
We SOLD thousands of lessons NOT in promotion.
We have 260 teachers visible on Myngle, and the majority of them have given more then 2 lessons and many have given hundreds of lessons per teacher, and are still giving them now.
And by the way… we do NOT have 2 CEOs.

So, I am open to any criticism, but please, let it be fair and correct.

Thank you,

Marina

Oh is this where the gang is hanging out?! Or is this the new coffee corner? ;-)
Uhm I don't have a very good feeling, and I really felt Myngle was going in the right direction, something seemed to happen along the way, pity eh...well we'll see what the future holds. I am another who really thought the 5 pack lessons were a good idea, anything over the 30 days I really don't think will sell, perhaps I'm wrong, but just my humble opinion...
p.s Hello to Kirsten BigK, Chris, Mike and Yaz, be good! ;-)

Yasemin, I love this:

Less registrations,ghost profiles…to save the ship,offering
wrong directions God knows to where but these directions are just the movements of the ship going upwards and inwards-that’s all about it.Touring its around-not trying to see the possible directions and just dreaming the horizon and at the same time losing the hope inside-the hopes of the crew-

Sounds like there is a writer inside you dear!

Kirsten-

You may have said enough, but we appreciate every word! This Internet stuff is interesting because it is hard to escape criticism. Especially when a lot is well deserved.

Here's a typical package offer! Which one would you advise a student to book? Which gives the best value for money, assuming the student uses up all the lessons?

Package 30 minute 45 minute
10 Easy € 60,- € 90,-
30 Intensive € 180,- € 270,-
50 Pro € 250,- € 400,-
100 Stretch € 500,- € 700,-
30 Immersion € 99,- -

These packages were introduced after Myngle announced tne need to simplify the "booking experience"!

Hello bigK, Chris and Yasmn,
welcome on the blog.

I don't see a sense in the packages bigger than 30 lessons either. And why are there two 30 lesson packages now? One valid for 30 days, one for 120 days. Don't get the sense in it. Especially according to the discussion "how to simplify the use of Myngle".

The only reason for big packages I can see is to get cash, as bigK mentioned. Be it to pay the bills or to be more attractive to investors. But I don't see a benefit for the teachers, e.g. for me.

I had two students who were interested in booking a 5 lesson package with me this week. Well, when I woke up on monday, the 5 lesson package was just a history...

@Mike There is the biggest problem that I see. If I give a discount on lesson packages, I calculate it on the basis that I know I will get the whole sum.

Now there are two facts that made me stop offering packages on Myngle:

1) I don't get the payment of the packages in one single payment. Myngle just gives me small bites although the money is already on my "virtual" Myngle account. They don't charge the student per lesson either. So what is the reason / explanation for this? I don't have a contract with them that would allow them to hold back my payments! The students buys a package of ME not of Myngle. So why do I only get pocket money like a child? The only thing that I could accept would be a payment of the whole sum at the end of the month but I don't think that even for this there is a legal basis to do so.

2) As I said, the package price with the included reduction is based on the fact that I get ALL the money. Now there is a good chance, that Myngle will keep a part of it. It's not that unusual that a student misses one or several lessons. How can I include this fact in my calculations? I lower the reduction or give no reduction at all.

That Myngle changed once again the rules from one day to the other without prior notice to their teachers is an other thing.

I cannot understand this kind of behaviour but in the end, it's Myngle's decision. I think I said enough about issues like these in the past 6 months.

nice to hear from you here-dear Chris and Mike :-)
(THANKS to Kirsten !)
well,about the packages...sorry to say..but it seems to me
the ship is getting water inside.(at the real,it has been nearly a month)Less registrations,ghost profiles...to save the ship,offering
wrong directions God knows to where but these directions are just the movements of the ship going upwards and inwards-that's all about it.Touring its around-not trying to see the possible directions and just dreaming the horizon and at the same time losing the hope inside-the hopes of the crew-
All in all,wishing luck for the crew-keeping my fingers cross for the ones who are already good at swimming-I'm sending my best regards,
See u !

Panic on the titanic? Brush up the old bride? Boy, do I love these phrases! Very colorful!

Since I don't have access to Myngle's books it is hard for me to comment on their resources however charging customers for a year of lessons in advance does put lots of working capital in your pocket. Geeze, I thought this was only being done for the benefit of the students and teachers.

Chris, has a point about this system trying to "bind" teachers to students. But from the students' point of view this binding doesn't make sense. The value of binding is to "tie up" a teacher's time so that 2-3 months from now you can be assured of access to the teacher. I don't see that need at Myngle.

One of the reasons I see behind this is to encourage teachers to give bigger discounts to students. Myngle probably sees a need for bigger discounts to students instead of boosts. The days of government subsidies (boosts) is coming to an end. These programs are actually a fresh approach to market pricing. I am excited to see what happens.

Hi Mike, hi Chris,
nice to see you here :).

Well first of all I don't agree with you, Mike. There is planing behind the packages, you just look on the wrong side ;).

And I don't think it's to bind customers neiter, Chris. The answer is: Myngle needs money, lots of money. They are in the business for over one year now. And how much did they earn? Zero, nada, nuttin', zilch...
They just managed to sink 800.000 Euro.
Their adwords campaign was aweful, the boost business wise a suicide and up to now I don't see were they want to make plus. I mean how many teachers are really working on Myngle. Like 4 or 5? and how many of them really sell lessons without promotion or boost? Maybe 2?
And this pays for 2 CEOs, 4 managers lots of interns and an outsourced IT company?! COME ON!

So there is panic on the Titanic. They need to make money, and they need to make it quick.

As I don't think that they really hope on teachers and students run in all of a sudden to turn this wrack into a cashcow, they need to brush up the old bride to get investor money. And how do you get it? With arguments how they will get their investment back plus a nice X in the end.

Let's count a bit, Myngle already takes 3% more than italki and edufire. They hold back payments of the teachers, so they get interest on this money for 30 days. And now they take 50% of unsold lessons. WOW! I'll invest into this business model!

Presumably the idea behind the packages is to "bind" customers. I wonder how necessary this is...

It'll be interesting to see how many customers will allow themselves to be tied down in this way! If none do, the splitting of the left-over cash will be academic.

Looking at a number of teachers' profiles I'd say potential customers are more likely to be confused by the myriad price-structurings than anything else.

I wonder too if 50-50 means what it says or whether the teacher's 50 won't be liable to the deduction of the 18% commission, which would mean 59-41! Who knows?

Interesting if you look at it from another angle.

# 10-lesson package, expires after 60 days= 1 lesson every 6 days
# 30-lesson package, expires after 120 days= 1 lesson every 4 days
# 50-lesson package, expires after 180 days= 1 lesson every 3.6 days
# 100-lesson package, expires after 365 days= 1 lesson every 3.6 days

Do you think any thought went into this? It looks like students of the 100 lesson package don't have very much wiggle room if they try to average 1 lesson every three days.

I wonder how much teachers will discount an hourly lesson for the chance at a long term contract? This bears watching.

Hi Mike, hi KO,
well, they only keep 50% of "unused" lesson packages. But still an interesting move. One word: "cashflow".

And about digging their own grave, I don't think that most of the teachers on Myngle already got, what this means according to their payments.

Taking 50% is craaaazy. Seriously? Digging their grave, they are...

By keeping 100% of any unused subscriptions I wonder if this puts Myngle in conflict with any consumer laws in various countries around the world.Hmmm.